Fences & Hedges
I went to the meeting tonight, and was quite surprised that No one mentioned the fact that the Venice Specific Plan allows 6' high fences in the North Venice Area (area bound by Abbot Kinney, Riviera (and believe North Venice), as long as the fence is 1' from the front property line. We live on Rialto and have a 6', 1' away from the property line- that was obtained with a PERMIT and is shown on our plot plan that is in CITY RECORDS and that was also signed off by the Building Inspector five years ago.
I am a licensed architect and the Venice Specific Plan SUPERCEDES the LA Zoning code.
How can you all be ignorant to the fact that this is also part of the law? Aren't you the Venice Neighborhood Council?
Shouldn't you know what laws apply to Venice?
Please give out all the facts before you get everyone angry with your partial truth. Reading applicable codes should also be part of your research.
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What about the safety of those on the other side of the fence?
I understand the desire to feel secure within your own property, but I live near a South Venice Beach walk street (23rd Ave) where almost all of the property owners have erected 6'- 8' tall fences. They have effectively turned this walk street into a back alley. Trash accumulates and you rarely see a resident use their front gate. I am often frightened to walk down this street since it now feels like a narrow chute where I could be trapped. No resident would even see what was going on if I screamed since they couldn't see over their own fences into the walk street. Other nearby walk streets are lined with owners who have respected the rules and the community and those streets remain pleasant and safe for neighborhood use while 23rd Ave. has been ruined for the whole community. Most neighbors I know use the adjacent back alley to cut through because even though it is mainly trash cans and parking spaces it is more inviting than the actual walk street. This is not just a neighborhood "character" issue, it is a safety issue as well. Any solution needs to address the concerns of both the people within and outside of the fences. I would suggest that any higher fence proposals incorporate design specifications that allow for visibility. Fences are one thing, but walls are another.
Fences policy and Bill Rosendahl
Contact Bill Rosendahl, or, maybe better yet, contact him and make a campaign donation. Rumor is he does not agree with the Council's desire to make us tear down our fences and will attempt to help us to the extent his recommendation is important to the City of LA.
Official Police/AG Position on Fences
Please use this link
http://www.lapdonline.org/prevent_crime/content_basic_view/1175#Crime%20...
and go to "Crime Prevention Tips for Home" then the "Burglary Prevention" pdf. Here is what is said:
Your first line of defense
To a burglar visibility means vulnerability. They hide behind fences and shrubbery. The key is to keep trespassers out while keeping your property visible. Use picket or chain link fences. Keep hedges clipped down around waist level.
RE: Official Police/AG Position on Fences (doesnt make sense...)
While I understand what this paragraph is trying say, I dont think it makes much sense.
A waist level picket fence is absolutely no protection.... it is easy to step over, let alone climb over. Not only that, but dogs can easily jump over a waist level fence. Additionally a waist level fence provides no privacy for my family in our livingroom, as our windows are almost 5' tall.
I know that if a burglar chose to climb my 6' fence, he would essentially have all the time he wants to break into my house, but at the same time, I'm willing to take that risk so that I can have privacy, and so that things , like my television, arent readily visible as potential prowlers case my block. Shouldnt it be my right to take that chance if I choose? One way or another you end-up with vulnerabilities...
I know this is a heated issue, but I live on a fairly wide block, with an apartment building across the street. even if I take my fence down, my street still isnt going to have a "friendly village" feeling. Tha is just wishful thinking. I know there are some blocks, where all the houses are still quaint, but in my area (near Oakwood), we have small houses and apartment buildings. I'd love a picket fence, but that is not the reality for the streets on which I live.
Fences
Read it again. They suggest waist high hedges not fences.
I live in an apartment in Venice. I go for walks on my street and on occasion see a neighbor in their yard and smile and say hello. I am not lurking and if my neighbor sees me again we start to recognize each other. We may even start to look out for each other. If someone was lurking at their property I would know it wasn't them and get involved.
I live on the second story and I used to have a nice view around me. There was my next door neighbor who had a beautiful tree in their yard that shaded my front door. I used to know the people who lived next door to me. Only to say hello, beautiful day on occasion. They had an older home with a hugh backyard. They moved and the first thing that happen was months of demolition and building. First the tree went, so I had to change all the plants on my balcony to succulents. Then this giant two story house with a jacuzzi on the top of the second story and a winding staircase that went to the roof. When my neighbors take those stairs they look right into my front door and windows. They used the whole property for their house so their two dogs only have the perimeter of the house to patrol. They bark at me when I walk past the 6'ft fence that separates our property, and anyone going down the alley and the neighbor on the other side of the property, all day long. Recently, my indoor cat got out and went under their fence into their yard. I tried to go to the front of the house but it has a 6' wall and solid gate and I couldn't get them to answer. The dogs were attacking my cat and I couldn't get in to save him. The dogs were killing my cat and by the time they came to the gate without opening it my cat was dead. I still don't know my neighbors names and I guess they are happy with their wall because we never have to say hello.
Fences
Venice is turning into a walled enclave. That certainly wasn't the idea when our walk streets and wide avenues were first constructed. These were meant to be neighborly bungalow homes that invited social interaction. Not so today. As the home values in Venice have risen, so have the fences. Newcomers who want to live near the beach but fear the diverse nature our neighborhood have surrounded their homes with ramparts. This destroys the character of Venice as much as the "McMansions" do. Our city already has rules on the books that govern fence height. It is the failure to enforce these rules that has created the issue. It is a false argument to say that the city can't tell homeowners what they can and can't do with their own property. We have a responsibility to the folks who have abided by height regulations FOR YEARS not to allow a reversal of these rules now. People want to live in Venice because it's charming. Let's do what we can to keep it that way.
Thanks,
Bob Hughes
Hi Bob I'm not sure how my
Hi Bob
I'm not sure how my desire to have a tall fence impacts you adversely. You can always have a short fence, or no fence at all, right? But if someone wants some privacy, what's wrong with that? You want government snooping in your bedroom, to promote "openness"? Twenty years ago, people could take a little hot tub under the stars without worrying too much. Today, some nosy neighbor will post a video on uTube, and all of a sudden you have to register as a sex offender. And if a parent doesn't want to advertise the fact that they have small children, I certainly can't blame them, can you?
How do you regulate "charm" and "community character"? By government-mandated styles? "Community character" could be used to describe communities based on race and ethnicity, too. In fact, when Abbot Kinney - a real estate developer - founded "charming" Venice, he envisioned the Oakwood area as a neighborhood for poor blacks, right? So, do "we" want to force blacks to live in Oakwood in order to preserve its charm and Abbot Kinney's vision?
I didn't move to Venice because it was "charming." I moved here partly because it was a place where people could do what they liked without a bunch of nosy people standing over them, wagging their fingers and scolding and saying, "Be like us. Think like us. Act like us. Dress like us. Make your house look like ours. You're ugly. You're too fat. Blah, blah, blah." It was the lack of order, not its enforcement, that I found attractive. Over the years, things have changed, and for the most part, I don't mind the direction things have gone. Abbot Kinney is bustling, and crime is down. In fact, the crime rate is lower now that we have more six-foot fences, right?
Use of property and density of development are legitimate matters to regulate. But things like "charm" and "community character" and "historic quality" are not so simple. A diverse community will have a diversity of people and opinions, and using majority rule, as a matter of law, to control minority opinions, is not cool. In my opinion.
Would you agree to tear your house down and turn your property into a wetland? Why not - you have rights? No, you don't. Ask a lawyer. Government run by petty bureaucrats can pretty much tell you to do whatever it is they want you to do with your property, and if you don't like that, tough. So, as long as you are wearing the blue uniform, please consider that you are in service to the public - you are not my overlord.
Regulating aesthetics IS NOT a legitimate use of police power.
"Character" of Venice and fences
Bob, some of us who live in the higher crime/drug areas and have high fences would like to know where you and others in favor of the fences policy live. I know some of the board members who want to require us to tear down our fences live in the much safer, more suburban parts of Venice, without drug dealers on the corners, and thus may have less interest in having fences. It isn't about fearing "diversity" bit about feeling safe for ourselves and our little children playing in the yard. I have plenty of "diverse" friends, as well as "diverse" neighbors with whom my family socializes - they don't scare us.
I'd bet most (if not all) of the folks voting to tear down fences don't have over-height fences. If they were going to have to spend money tearing down fences they spent money to build up (when most of their neigbors already had over-height fences), I'd bet they'd be singing a different tune.
While I'm not advocating that anyone have to tear down a fence or hedge(assuming it isn't a nuisance that obscures traffic on a corner or eats up the sidewalk), maybe a solution could be different rules for the quaint, charming walk streets with charming bungalows and the higher-crime, less "charming" areas, like my neighborhood, with their giant former "project" apartment buildings and their dealers wandering around.
High fences
I don't think anyone is seriously in favor of tearing down fences.
That's just not practical.
I think there's general agreement among opponents of high fences that we want the law to be enforced when new fences are being built or when a property is sold.
Obviously, there's sympathy for householders who really do have drug dealers outside their door, but I suspect they're in a minority. I remember that the best argument one woman could come up with was that she should have a high fence because a neighbor's cat was peeing on her grass.
I, too, hope that the working group will be able to come up with plans that understand the difference between high crime areas and the walk streets.
What do I know?
Thanks, ADiaz, for your welcome comment. First, let me respond directly to your concern: I'm truly sorry if you felt ill-served by the level of detail provided during a presentation which attempted to summarize materials reviewed over hundreds of unpaid hours of dedicated work during the course of the last year and more.
In practical terms, there's simply no way to get to everything in one fell swoop, particularly since last night's forum was devoted primarily to stakeholder input.
My report was imperfect. Pure and simple, I chose to include what I felt was the most illuminating set of facts and concepts, both to help the Board and whoever else showed up understand the core issues.
I think you'll find the answer to your question regarding the level of expertise applied to the materials in my question to you:
Did you read the supporting documents for last night's presentation?
If you prefer a more visceral approach, I suggest that you attend a regular LUPC or Board meeting, where we consider the details of individual projects and issues.
Thanks again for your comment. Please introduce yourself at a meeting!
Regards,
Jed Pauker
What an absolute waste of
What an absolute waste of the communities time - AND you decide to edit what you feel is necessary - move somewhere else Jed, PLEASE!
Where 6 foot fences are allowed in Venice Specific Plan
The text below is taken from the Venice Specific Plan. It shows that there are four "subareas" of Venice where six foot high fences are allowed.
Section 10. LAND USE AND DEVELOPMENT REGULATIONS FOR SUBAREAS.
A. BALLONA LAGOON WEST BANK.
2. Lagoon Buffer/Setback/Yards.
b. Lots located north of Ironsides Street:
(3) The combined height of any decks, railings, garden walls
and fences situated within the required Permeable yard
shall not exceed six feet above the elevation of the
adjacent public walkway.
B. BALLONA LAGOON (GRAND CANAL) EAST BANK.
3. Setback/Yards.
c. The combined height of any decks, railings, garden walls and
fences situated within the required Permeable yard shall not
exceed six feet above the elevation of the adjacent public
walkway.
C. SILVER STRAND.
3. Lagoon Buffer Strip and Setback.
(3) The total combined height of any decks, railings, garden
walls and/or fences situated within the ten to 15-feet
setback from the Lagoon Buffer Strip shall not exceed six
feet above the elevation of the Lagoon Buffer Strip located
immediately adjacent to the setback area.
F. NORTH VENICE.
4. Setback.
a. The front yard setback for all residential Venice Coastal
Development Projects shall be consistent with LAMC
requirements, but shall not be less than five feet. Ground level
patios, decks, landscaping and railings, wall and fences that do
not exceed six feet in height may encroach into this setback,
provided they observe a setback of one foot.
North venice...?
I'm confused by this. How is North venice defined?
I've seen maps where North venice continues all the way to Rose. Are 6' fences allowed between rose and venice blvd, west of lincoln, and east of main/abbot kinney?
Thanks!
North venice...?
Thanks for asking. Describing North Venice's eastern border is much harder in words than with a map. Loosely speaking, North Venice extends from Marine Ct. on the north to North Venice Blvd. on the south, and from Oceanfront Walk on the west to Hampton/Electric on the east, with a southwestern leg to 30th Place, extending from OFW east to Strongs Drive.
Here is the Venice Coastal Zone Specific Plan's textbook definition: "Generally bounded by the Los Angeles City boundary line on the north [Marine Ct.], Thirtieth Place, Virginia Court and North Venice Boulevard on the south, Hampton Drive, Electric Avenue, Ocean Avenue, Patricia Court, and Strongs Drive on the east and Ocean Front Walk on the west."
The VCZSP's map exhibits show the exact detail. You can find the VCZSP under "Guiding Documents" on the Committee/Land Use and Planning Committee page of this site.
The VCZSP specifies that, in the area you mention, residential properties east of Main/Abbot Kinney and west of Electric Avenue/Hampton Drive may have six-foot front yard fences or hedges, provided they observe a setback of one foot.
Hope this helps,
Jed Pauker
RE: North venice...? (thank you Jed)
Thanks Jed. That makes sense...
But what about those of us who live west of lincoln, but east of Hampton? We live a little east of the brick house cafe... our block couldnt really be described as a "quaint walk street of bungalows..." Its more like a suburban avenue of apartment buildings, neglected properties, an empty lot, an abandoned school...
Our fence sounds like its in jeopardy.
Is anyone organizing property owners who would like to keep their hedges and/or fences?
I'm imagining a petition to grandfather existing hedges and fences that are in good cosmetic condition...
Thanks!
Working group ideas
And thank you, Stylee. I know your area. First, I'd like to assure you that there's no move to start a "rash of citations," nor to go around tearing down people's fences. While the recommendations are technically about a narrow issue (enforcement of an existing law), the VNC Board did a great job of addressing the necessity to open up the issue to broader considerations.
What does this mean? It means we get the rare opportunity to look at how a fundamental law, common to most communities, affects our unusually diverse community - with a chance to improve the situation. For many reasons, this is a Very Good Thing.
As you've seen, merely mentioning this deceptively important issue is guaranteed to upset someone - Venice is by no means alone in this. Today, Venice has a chance to do what Santa Monica recently did, and Burbank, and other communities: work our way through the smoke and the maze, not only of the details but also of strong and well-founded feelings we all have about privacy, safety, property rights (and values), community character and planning.
Some people claim that this issue is unimportant. If that were true, no one would organize; no one would write; no one would boldly dedicate their very life to preserving their fence or hedge.
I believe our views on this are central to addressing all the others that demand our attention. One step forward on this one will energize us, in spirit and action, to meet the many challenges facing Venice, and the City at large.
With all this in mind, I'd like to ask your support in helping us all do two things first:
1) Let's put our fears to rest, and
2) Let's begin working to discover what's most possible and what's most just.
We would love to hear you submit your ideas to the working group.
Regards,
Jed Pauker
Venice
North Venice; Bill Rosendahl and VOTING THE BUMS OUT OF OFFICE
Stylee: It sounds like we live on the same street. It's hardly quaint or charming, is it?
We should certainly try to organize something.
You should also contact Bill Rosendahl, who I'm told favors our side of this issue.
We should also vote the VNC members who are trying to shove this policy down our throats off the VNC at the next election. That's democracy.
Fence Heights - Specific Plans
Please see this link for details on each of the Venice Specific Plans:
http://cityplanning.lacity.org/complan/specplan/vensppage.htm
North Venice is in the "Venice Coastal Specific Plan Area"
Fence Heights - Specific Plans
Unfortunately, though most of the links on the link I just provided work, the ones for the
Buffer/Setbacks for North and South Walk Streets respond with a "page not found" Makes me wonder why. I'll try to give a call and find out.
Fence Heights - Specific Plans
The link is now working - just fixed. Most of Venice is in the Coastal Zone.